36: How did Mark Stouse grow his startup from $0 to $2 million in revenue in 18 months?

[Paris Vega]: Welcome to the First Customers podcast. I'm your host, Parice Vega. Today [Paris Vega]: we have Mark Stoos with us. He's a former corporate CMO turned software CEO. [Paris Vega]: His startup went from zero to $2 million in revenue in only 18 months. Now [Paris Vega]: they're one of the 100 top partners for Salesforce and they're still growing. Their [Paris Vega]: client roster includes mega brands like Bayer, Samsung, Johnson Controls, Oracle [Paris Vega]: and others. Mark, welcome to the show. [Mark Stouse]: Hey, thank you so much for having me. [Paris Vega]: Let's get right to it. How'd you get your very first customers? [Mark Stouse]: You know, I think, you know, the way I saw it at the time and the way that [Mark Stouse]: I see it today, you know, with the benefit of lots of hindsight and lots of [Mark Stouse]: learning is somewhat different, right? I think that the biggest challenge that [Mark Stouse]: startups have is that they are startups. You know, they, the marketplace. [Mark Stouse]: doesn't know much about them. They don't really have any sense of confidence, [Mark Stouse]: the confidence level that they should have or not have. They don't know whether [Mark Stouse]: they're good people or not. So the trust scores are kind of like up in the [Mark Stouse]: air, right? And these are all things, these three psychographics around awareness, [Mark Stouse]: confidence, and trust are key to the way that people make buy decisions, [Mark Stouse]: particularly when there's a lot on the line. And so a startup that doesn't [Mark Stouse]: have a lot of brand reputation, because that's really what those three things [Mark Stouse]: amount to in the end, right? Needs to be able to pull brand reputation from [Mark Stouse]: something else or someone else. [Mark Stouse]: That's where my personal experience looking back on it is that in the beginning, [Mark Stouse]: the... the importance of founders having strong personal brands in the area that [Mark Stouse]: their company is seeking to operate in is key. I mean, it is absolutely key. If [Mark Stouse]: you, if no one knows your company and no one knows you either, right? Your success [Mark Stouse]: likelihood is very low single digits, right? particularly if you are proposing [Mark Stouse]: to solve a really big problem, a big hairy problem, they're going to say, [Mark Stouse]: well, how do I know I can trust you? How do I know I can have confidence that [Mark Stouse]: you know what you're talking about and that your solution does what it says [Mark Stouse]: it can do? And so immediately, just right out of the gate, right, you have [Mark Stouse]: all kinds of reasons going through their mind. why they won't do business with [Mark Stouse]: you. Because you gotta really understand that particularly in B2B, there's [Mark Stouse]: no one more risk averse than a reasonably senior leader who's being asked [Mark Stouse]: to make a buy decision. Because if they do it wrong, it can really hurt them. [Mark Stouse]: And so, they're gonna, it's one of the reasons why you see. deal velocity, [Mark Stouse]: right, particularly in the last year or so, really lengthening out, is that [Mark Stouse]: people not only are under financial pressure, but they're extremely pressurized [Mark Stouse]: around opportunity costs. And opportunity costs is the whole idea that if [Mark Stouse]: you spent the money wrong, then not only did you lose that money that you invested, [Mark Stouse]: but you also lost what you could have invested in it. So you're kind of a two-time [Mark Stouse]: loser. minimum and that is that people would rather just die almost than have [Mark Stouse]: that happen right now because people's jobs they're more vulnerable right [Mark Stouse]: now than they've been in quite a while things like that. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: So this is the big deal right when it comes to that you know kind of cold [Mark Stouse]: start that you know going from zero to one right uh is That's the hardest [Mark Stouse]: part of all, right? Um, sometimes people can kind of sandbag this a little bit [Mark Stouse]: by getting some early paying customers, almost like that they announce with, [Mark Stouse]: right? They announced the formation of their company [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: and we already have these five customers. But if you'll notice most of the [Mark Stouse]: time, no revenue numbers are attached. to those five customers. And that's [Mark Stouse]: because the amount of money that's being paid is so trivial that it's just not [Mark Stouse]: even worth talking about. Five [Paris Vega]: or maybe [Mark Stouse]: grand, [Paris Vega]: even a free [Mark Stouse]: 10 [Paris Vega]: trial. [Mark Stouse]: grand, something like that. And so it's just not even worth talking about. [Mark Stouse]: And so it's a little bit of a ruse and I don't think that it necessarily [Mark Stouse]: really helps because I think everybody... today sees through it. But I think, [Mark Stouse]: you know, in my particular case and my co-founder's case. Kyle and I had a [Mark Stouse]: long established, well-known track record as marketing leaders who had successfully, [Mark Stouse]: based on the testimony of the CEOs we were working for, we had solved this [Mark Stouse]: problem. And very few other people could make that claim. And we got a lot of [Mark Stouse]: press around it over a number of years. Actually the whole reason why I got [Mark Stouse]: it. recruited to Honeywell to be the CMO of Honeywell Aerospace was the press [Mark Stouse]: that I got, right? Around the job that I had right before that. And the CEO, [Mark Stouse]: the then CEO of Honeywell basically said, hey, you know what? I want to talk to [Mark Stouse]: this guy. So it's the same deal. Whether you're going for a job or whether you're [Mark Stouse]: trying to sell a product in, right? At the end of the day... People want [Mark Stouse]: to know, can, are, are a lot of people aware of you, right? Because that [Mark Stouse]: kind of carries some weight all by itself. Um, do I have confidence in what [Mark Stouse]: you're saying to me? And do I think you're a good person that's going to [Mark Stouse]: do right by me, the company, you know, whatever, right? So the trust piece [Mark Stouse]: is sort of the ethical piece and the, and the, uh, the confidence piece [Mark Stouse]: is essentially a reflection on can you deliver what you say you can deliver? [Paris Vega]: So you're saying that the founder's personal brand is critical to getting those [Paris Vega]: first legitimate customers, or at least [Mark Stouse]: Yeah. [Paris Vega]: it was a big part of how you got your customers and moved up to your career. [Mark Stouse]: Yeah. [Paris Vega]: So, you know, [Mark Stouse]: And then, [Paris Vega]: most [Mark Stouse]: and then. [Paris Vega]: people probably aren't in the news very often. You know, that seems like [Paris Vega]: a rare thing. Is there anything you can maybe give some advice or speak to [Paris Vega]: how a founder can build their personal brand, since you're saying that's [Paris Vega]: like a critical part of getting those first customers? [Mark Stouse]: Well, you have to start long before you actually need it. Right? So it's [Mark Stouse]: like planting a forest, you know, in order to chop it all down for wood later. [Mark Stouse]: You [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: know, you're going to probably have to plan it, start planning that one 20 [Mark Stouse]: years before you need the lumber. Right? [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: So in my particular case, right, I mean, a lot of the brand building that happened, [Mark Stouse]: when it was happening, If I had any intent around it at all, it was more around, [Mark Stouse]: hey, enjoy the notoriety, right? I wouldn't necessarily call it fame, but certainly [Mark Stouse]: the notoriety. And it's gonna help me get my next job, my next gig, right? [Mark Stouse]: Because it wasn't until pretty late in the game in some ways that we decided [Mark Stouse]: to... do this, meaning the startup, right? So, we're also very different as a startup. [Mark Stouse]: I mean, most of the people that are in Proof today are certainly older than [Mark Stouse]: 45. Some of them are older than 55. And I think that it gives us a lot of stability [Mark Stouse]: and strength and when we show up in meetings, You know, people go, Oh, okay. [Mark Stouse]: These are not people that, that haven't been around the block very much that [Mark Stouse]: may not, may not know really what's really going on, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: you know? Um, so I mean, there's just a, you know, I think that the most important [Mark Stouse]: thing I can really say about this is that what, you know, instead of talking [Mark Stouse]: about it as some sort of brand, which most people kind of mostly associate [Mark Stouse]: with awareness. [Paris Vega]: Mm-hmm. [Mark Stouse]: What you're really building over time, and it is very much something that builds [Mark Stouse]: over time, is people's confidence and trust in you, and what you've done and [Mark Stouse]: what you say. And if you, like, you know, there were people that I talked to [Mark Stouse]: about proof in the early days that said, man, you know what? I don't know [Mark Stouse]: anything about what you're saying. But the fact that you're saying it, I have [Mark Stouse]: loads of belief in that. And so I will either, you know, buy your product [Mark Stouse]: and you tell me what I need to do to implement it and all that kind of stuff, [Mark Stouse]: or I will in some cases invest in, in your company, um, you know, and you [Mark Stouse]: don't really like, I didn't like, I'd never liked the idea that people were. [Mark Stouse]: Investing. because of me. Cause I'm just a human being like everybody else. [Mark Stouse]: Right. Um, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: so I would always really, you know, reinforce the opportunity and our, our [Mark Stouse]: investment decks or for that matter, our sales decks were always first class. [Mark Stouse]: Right. And, and I really wanted them, but, but it's unavoidable, right? They're [Mark Stouse]: going to look at me and Kyle and, and other people in proof and they're [Mark Stouse]: going to go, okay. I hear everything, I see everything. What do I feel in my heart [Mark Stouse]: about these guys? And that's ultimately going to drive their decision. [Paris Vega]: Interesting. OK, so it sounds like since you mentioned the founder brand [Paris Vega]: being such a big part of your success, when you decided to finally start [Paris Vega]: a startup. So that implies that networking like referrals and that kind of [Paris Vega]: relationship. [Mark Stouse]: Mm-hmm. [Paris Vega]: Side of marketing that's based on trust and everything would be a big part [Paris Vega]: of it. Can you speak to any other? like tactics or strategies or things that you [Paris Vega]: guys did to actually execute starting the company. How did you reach [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, [Paris Vega]: out? How [Mark Stouse]: sure. [Paris Vega]: did you get the message [Mark Stouse]: Yeah. [Paris Vega]: out? [Mark Stouse]: No, I mean, so, you know, there's several observations I would make, [Paris Vega]: Mm-hmm. [Mark Stouse]: even though, you know, money's always tight in the startup and you, you know, [Mark Stouse]: you want to kind of your, your natural impulse as a founder is to spend it [Mark Stouse]: on the stuff that's highly visible to the marketplace. Uh, and I totally get that. [Mark Stouse]: Um, there are certain things that really will save your ass. Right. when [Mark Stouse]: you need it to and kind of like brand personal or corporate brand. You have [Mark Stouse]: to start that process early and maintain it before it can really be a value [Mark Stouse]: to you. One of those is legal. So you want to get a great lawyer or law firm [Mark Stouse]: on your side. You want the best contracts. that you can possibly do, right? [Mark Stouse]: Whether they're your commercial contracts or shareholder agreements or whatever. [Mark Stouse]: I mean, you want them, you want the people signing them, you want the procurement [Mark Stouse]: teams to go, wow, I just want you to know that's a really great contract. [Mark Stouse]: It didn't have a lot of extra bullshit in it, right? It was... very clear, [Mark Stouse]: you know, it was, uh, and, and everybody knows exactly what the rules of this [Mark Stouse]: game are. There's no obfuscation, there's no hidden outs, there's no weirdness, [Mark Stouse]: right? You don't want any of that. And, but when you, when you, all of a [Mark Stouse]: sudden you are faced with a situation that none of us want to be faced with, but [Mark Stouse]: if you're in business long enough, it will absolutely happen to you. Right. Um, [Mark Stouse]: you're going to be so thankful. You pull out, I mean, you pull out that agreement, [Mark Stouse]: you know, from DocuSign or whatever, and you're, you're reading it, having just [Mark Stouse]: received some sort of, you know, email or whatever. And, uh, and you're, you [Mark Stouse]: read it through again, re familiar, re familiarize yourself with the agreement [Mark Stouse]: and you just relax, you just feel all the kind of your blood pressure and [Mark Stouse]: everything else just starts to fall, right? Because you realize you don't [Mark Stouse]: have a problem. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: know, and so it is, uh, that's just a great thing. Um, that's what, you know, [Mark Stouse]: so I would, I would also just say that. You're you need to spend your money. [Mark Stouse]: with the understanding on anything, with the understanding that it's, whatever [Mark Stouse]: you think the payback period is on that money, where you're gonna see value [Mark Stouse]: from it, it's gonna be longer than that. Oftentimes [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: considerably longer. And you just gotta be prepared for that, right? I mean, [Mark Stouse]: one of the, the number one reason why startups fail, right, is that they run [Mark Stouse]: out of money. [Paris Vega]: Yeah. Did you personally reach out to your network when you were launching [Paris Vega]: proof analytics or did you guys rely on advertising or marketing or [Mark Stouse]: No, we actually, so we do advertise today, but [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: we started out totally organic. So LinkedIn has always been super strong for [Mark Stouse]: us as a channel. I'm very active myself there. And so we kicked it off on LinkedIn, [Mark Stouse]: you know, and then we did some press, some industry trade press and things [Mark Stouse]: like that, [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: you know, did some, you know, did some press releases and. Um, one of our [Mark Stouse]: board members do somebody, you know, at NASDAQ. And even though we weren't [Mark Stouse]: at NASDAQ, you know, they have that, that big billboard, uh, they're on Times [Mark Stouse]: Square, big vertical [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: billboard. Um, and, uh, and they, you know, for the princely sum of a hundred [Mark Stouse]: bucks, right. Uh, we, we got our announcement up there on the big board, [Mark Stouse]: right. That was, that was very [Paris Vega]: That's [Mark Stouse]: cool. [Paris Vega]: crazy. [Mark Stouse]: Right. And And it, and it made, you know, it doesn't really mean a whole lot, [Mark Stouse]: to be perfectly honest with you. What does mean more, not a whole lot more, [Mark Stouse]: but what does mean more is the photograph of you on the, on the big board, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: um, that then you can send out to your shareholders and all this kind of stuff. [Mark Stouse]: And it's just, it's kind of a feel good, right? Um, so, but it doesn't, it, [Mark Stouse]: it doesn't make shareholders feel good. or anyone else feel good in the [Mark Stouse]: same way that ramping sales makes everybody feel good. And so, you know, that's [Mark Stouse]: the, that's the whole goal. And the, the other part that's so key here, uh, [Mark Stouse]: cause again, we're back to awareness, confidence, and trust is that whoever your [Mark Stouse]: first customers are. [Mark Stouse]: their success with your product or with your service. [Mark Stouse]: is impossible to exaggerate how important that is. Customer success is always [Mark Stouse]: important. It's important today, right? No matter where you are in your growth [Mark Stouse]: cycle, it's gonna be important. But in that early days, those early days, it's [Mark Stouse]: crucial, right, because what's gonna happen is that you're going to, in some [Mark Stouse]: way, shape, or form, you're going to announce the existence of these customers. [Mark Stouse]: Could just be their logos are on your website. It could be... something more [Mark Stouse]: interesting than that on LinkedIn or whatever, okay, but you're gonna want to [Mark Stouse]: announce them because that's momentum. So then you have a stake in the ground [Mark Stouse]: with everybody else that you talk to, and they're going to say, so how's [Mark Stouse]: it going with so-and-so? Right. Or, you know, tell me a story of how Johnson [Mark Stouse]: controls got value from this or, you know, whatever. Right. And if you can't [Mark Stouse]: do that and, you know, kind of like under pressure, so to speak, actually [Mark Stouse]: get your customer to tell them. Then. That's not a good thing. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: You know, and you're going to have a problem maintaining your momentum. Cause [Mark Stouse]: everyone's going to kind [Paris Vega]: for sure. [Mark Stouse]: of go, Ooh, silence is not golden on this deal. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: Right. If customer X was really deriving tons of benefit. they would say something, [Mark Stouse]: right? It may not be detailed. They may look at all the details as being, [Mark Stouse]: you know, competitive advantage and all that kind of stuff. And everyone gets [Mark Stouse]: that. But if they're not on the record somewhere publicly as saying, you know, [Mark Stouse]: this company is just awesome. You ought to really look, talk to them. It's, [Mark Stouse]: you know, made a big difference for us. That's a very generic set of three [Mark Stouse]: sentences, and yet, you know, it's really important. [Paris Vega]: Do you have a process for collecting or incentivizing that kind of feedback so that [Paris Vega]: you can use it publicly or in case studies? [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, I mean, basically the way that I learned to do this and it still works [Mark Stouse]: really well, but I learned it in big software companies is that you present [Mark Stouse]: the, the contract, the term sheet. Right. And you say, here's your price. This [Mark Stouse]: assumes, uh, that you will allow us to publicly, you know, share the fact that [Mark Stouse]: you're a customer and your success and all that kind of stuff. And obviously we [Mark Stouse]: have to get approvals from you. You know, you're going to say whatever you [Mark Stouse]: want to say and all that kind of stuff. But, and, and if you don't want to [Mark Stouse]: do that, if your legal team or your procurement team, you know, says, Oh, [Mark Stouse]: no, we don't do that, you know, then your price is 10% more. [Paris Vega]: Hmm. [Mark Stouse]: And nobody wants to check that box, excepting 10% more. [Paris Vega]: Wow, do you ever see that being a deal breaker for [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, [Paris Vega]: potential [Mark Stouse]: sometimes, [Paris Vega]: clients? [Mark Stouse]: but, but not, not permanently, right. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: Because it's, uh, they're weighing, they, somebody ultimately says, this is stupid. [Mark Stouse]: Right. They want something. They want a concession from us. That's non-financial [Mark Stouse]: to us. And by denying it, we're, we're going to have to pay them 10% more. Right. [Mark Stouse]: This is just dumb. Right? We had already made the decision that they were [Mark Stouse]: the best, that we should buy them and not the next guy. Right? So this is [Mark Stouse]: just dumb. And so, I mean, I've seen very few deals. I mean, they might get [Mark Stouse]: delayed while there's an internal argument between procurement and the internal [Mark Stouse]: customer or something like that, but procurement is not going to win that deal. [Mark Stouse]: They're just not. I've never seen them actually win it. Sometimes if legal [Mark Stouse]: picks up the cudgel, right, they can make it stick. but [Paris Vega]: Picks up the what? What [Mark Stouse]: the [Paris Vega]: was that word? [Mark Stouse]: bat, the cudgel, the [Paris Vega]: Oh, okay. [Mark Stouse]: club, right? Right? If they do that, then they can, they have a way of making [Mark Stouse]: it stick. Okay. And then as the vendor, you have to decide, do I want to lose [Mark Stouse]: all that revenue or not? And you know, all this kind of stuff. Knowing also, [Mark Stouse]: the other thing is, you know, that's, that, you know, if it goes really, [Mark Stouse]: really well, that somebody on the client side is going to... Say something [Mark Stouse]: anyway. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: Right? So, I mean, it's, it's kind of like, you know, um, I don't think, [Mark Stouse]: I think that you can encourage people in a variety of ways. The most effective [Mark Stouse]: way that I've seen outside of the contract provision is just appealing to [Mark Stouse]: people's ego, right? Where you're just not, you're not making it about them talking [Mark Stouse]: about how great you are, you're met your, whatever they say, they're talking [Mark Stouse]: about their own success. So they, they kind of like the [Paris Vega]: Gotcha. [Mark Stouse]: best that I've ever seen like this were, it's where like a CMO or a CRO or [Mark Stouse]: somebody like that will say, wow, you know, we were able, and we is sort [Mark Stouse]: of code for me. Right. That's sort of the way that everyone understands what's [Mark Stouse]: really being said. We were able to accomplish all these things, you know, and [Mark Stouse]: they tell this big success story. And, oh, by the way, the, you know, the tool [Mark Stouse]: we used was proof or whatever. Right. And, [Paris Vega]: Gotcha. [Mark Stouse]: and, you know, and so that's all that's necessary, right. Is tying you explicitly [Mark Stouse]: to all of this value that was delivered, that they realized [Paris Vega]: to their win, [Mark Stouse]: that's [Paris Vega]: yeah. [Mark Stouse]: the, that's the winner, man, right there. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: And people, that's part of them building their brand. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: Right? So it's in their own interests to do it. And most of the time, procurement, [Mark Stouse]: legal, they're not looking at the news or whatever, particularly in areas [Mark Stouse]: that maybe don't relate to their company. That's not happening, right? So it [Mark Stouse]: just, it tends to... just happened and it's all good. No one gets in trouble and [Mark Stouse]: it's all good. [Paris Vega]: So when you guys first announced proof analytics on LinkedIn, like you probably [Paris Vega]: did a personal post, just [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, [Paris Vega]: an organic [Mark Stouse]: yeah, [Paris Vega]: post. [Mark Stouse]: absolutely. [Paris Vega]: And then is that [Mark Stouse]: Which [Paris Vega]: where your first [Mark Stouse]: actually, so [Paris Vega]: leads? [Mark Stouse]: this is actually really important, I had adopted LinkedIn as a discipline, like [Mark Stouse]: six years before that, where I would literally post something every morning. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: Right. And so [Paris Vega]: Were [Mark Stouse]: I [Paris Vega]: you [Mark Stouse]: had. [Paris Vega]: strategic in that or is it just, you have to have visibility, so you're posting [Paris Vega]: anything or what did [Mark Stouse]: Yeah. [Paris Vega]: you have [Mark Stouse]: Anything. [Paris Vega]: kind of a niche? [Mark Stouse]: I mean, my whole goal is I want to be helpful and relevant. Right. And so, [Mark Stouse]: you know, within kind of the marketing sales, go to market space, maybe [Mark Stouse]: a few other areas like leadership and things like that sustainability. I, you [Mark Stouse]: know, I tend to post and, and I, I think I, my content is usually pretty [Mark Stouse]: good and so I built up a following on LinkedIn that then When I really needed [Mark Stouse]: that following, when I needed that relatively large group of people to see [Mark Stouse]: our announcement, they were there. But if you've got 228 [Paris Vega]: six year investment. [Mark Stouse]: followers on LinkedIn and you try and start a, you know, announce a startup, [Mark Stouse]: you're just, that's not gonna get you much. [Paris Vega]: Right. And so is that where your first leads came from? Like your personal post? [Mark Stouse]: Um, I think that, I think there was maybe one actually that happened that [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: way. Um, most of them were, were not marketing driven leads. They were me reaching [Mark Stouse]: out to people I knew say, Hey, let's, let me tell you what's going on, let [Mark Stouse]: me tell you what, what we've built and what we've got. And then doing a [Mark Stouse]: series of demos and all that kind of stuff. Um, And also, I mean, we were, [Mark Stouse]: I mean, we were never willing to, you know, kind of like do a cheap deal, [Mark Stouse]: but we also didn't hose them down either because what we really wanted more [Mark Stouse]: than anything in the early stage, other than customer validation was customer [Mark Stouse]: input. We wanted customer feedback. We wanted customers and, and actually the, [Mark Stouse]: the the super valuable customer feedback is always negative. It's always when [Mark Stouse]: the customer says, man, you know what? I see what you're trying to do there [Mark Stouse]: in that product, but that's not really working for us and we have this, you [Mark Stouse]: know, we've written up like a couple pages, a couple of slides detailing [Mark Stouse]: the problem and you know, all this kind of that's solid gold, solid gold, [Mark Stouse]: right. Worth so much more than the revenue. Right. I mean, it's just impossible [Mark Stouse]: to place a value on that. So, you know, it's kind of like, it took me a while [Mark Stouse]: actually, unfortunately, to get this, the right attitude about my own individual [Mark Stouse]: 360 degree performance reviews, you know, in large corporations, because my [Mark Stouse]: old goal was to be the best, right? And so if anyone says that I could improve [Mark Stouse]: in some area, right, that was maybe not what I wanted to hear. And then I [Mark Stouse]: kind of wrapped my head around it correctly. Right. Um, and said, wow, thanks [Mark Stouse]: so much, you know, because guess what? Most of the time you're completely unaware, [Mark Stouse]: completely unaware of the fact that you're screwing up in some area. Right. [Mark Stouse]: Cause you just have a blind spot. And so the people that reveal those blind spots, [Mark Stouse]: whether it's to you personally, or about your product or whatever. Right. And [Mark Stouse]: they're, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: you know, it may not be fun. It's never fun to get that kind of information, [Mark Stouse]: but man, I'm so grateful to them. [Paris Vega]: Yeah, because it's probably a lot cheaper than doing like formal user testing [Paris Vega]: and observation and all that, especially with a software product. If you [Paris Vega]: can get some free customer feedback from somebody who tried your service. [Mark Stouse]: Yeah. And I would never call it free because I mean, again, it is, it's [Mark Stouse]: pretty brutal. Right. [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: And, and, and it's also in fairness, it is brutal to them. Right. Because they're [Mark Stouse]: investing a lot of time and effort to get value out of this tool as well. You [Mark Stouse]: cannot, you cannot act like that's not true. It is extremely true. Um, and so [Mark Stouse]: there is a certain. [Mark Stouse]: altruism and there in a company's willingness, a team's willingness to do this [Mark Stouse]: for you. That is truly remarkable. Right. Because you could totally given everything [Mark Stouse]: on their plate and all that kind of stuff, you would totally understand if they [Mark Stouse]: just kicked your ass out the door and said, come back, you know, in several [Mark Stouse]: years when you've actually figured it out. Right. I mean, [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: you could totally get that. I mean, that's a, that's a not an unreasonable. [Mark Stouse]: response. [Paris Vega]: Could you take us through the first few months of that launch and how the [Paris Vega]: way you targeted customers changed? Um, cause you went from zero to 2 million in [Paris Vega]: 18 months. [Mark Stouse]: Mm-hmm. [Paris Vega]: And so was it like, what was that kind of pace of getting new customers on-boarding [Paris Vega]: new customers? Was it a lot all at once or was it gradual and then spike? Can [Paris Vega]: you speak to that some [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, no, I mean, so that's a great question because I'll tell you this, [Mark Stouse]: it never happens gradually. Right. Um, and the analytics actually bear this out [Mark Stouse]: as well. The, [Paris Vega]: Really? [Mark Stouse]: the non-linearity. So life in general, business in general is very non-linear. [Mark Stouse]: We prefer to try and think of it as being linear because it's easier for [Mark Stouse]: us to think about, but it's actually not even remotely linear. And so. [Paris Vega]: interesting. [Mark Stouse]: What happens is you get a lot of this and then this and then this and then [Mark Stouse]: this. And, you know, and so, I mean, there's some, there's some really strong [Mark Stouse]: kind of like whipsaw effects. Um, you know, you can feel like everybody in [Mark Stouse]: the world wants to talk to you. And then all of a sudden, no one wants to talk [Mark Stouse]: to you. And what I learned. The way that I learned to think about this is that [Mark Stouse]: when I started to, when I thought about that either way, good or bad, right? [Mark Stouse]: I was making it about me or about proof. Like somehow. The definition of our [Mark Stouse]: success was that every person that we cared about out there in the marketplace [Mark Stouse]: would suddenly turn around and wanna talk to us and never do anything else [Mark Stouse]: but talk to us, right? And when you put it that way, it sounds so ridiculous [Mark Stouse]: that you go, well, of course that's not true, right? But when you're sitting [Mark Stouse]: there and there was kind of the way I would put it is in that first... year. [Mark Stouse]: There were loads. And you're kind of like, hey, we can't have any lulls, [Mark Stouse]: you know, chop, chop. Right. And, [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: uh, and the marketplace doesn't care how you feel about it. In fact, they're [Mark Stouse]: not even thinking about how you think about it. And they're not intentionally [Mark Stouse]: giving you the brush off. They just got other stuff going on. So, you know, [Mark Stouse]: it's, it's. I'll give you a similar example real fast, going back to brand. [Mark Stouse]: where brand is like the grease on the gears of business. And it takes a while [Mark Stouse]: for that to actually, for you to get the engine completely lubed and going [Mark Stouse]: the way it should be. And for everyone else out there to feel that way, because [Mark Stouse]: it's actually not the, the definition of brand is not what you think of your brand [Mark Stouse]: is what everybody else thinks of you, right? What they're saying about you. [Mark Stouse]: Do they think about you more now than they used to? Whatever. Right. So [Mark Stouse]: you're kind of sitting there going, man, no one, I mean, phone's not ringing, [Mark Stouse]: right? So you do more outbound and some of that is successful. And, you know, [Mark Stouse]: but, but you know, you're at some level, you're always aware that a sign. [Mark Stouse]: of momentum is how many inbounds, unsolicited inbounds you're getting, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: right? And so you're kind of going, crap, you know, I didn't get any calls [Mark Stouse]: today. And it's a real testimony to how [Mark Stouse]: insecure it is to be in that place as an entrepreneur because you really [Mark Stouse]: are looking at it exactly that way. I mean, day by day, right? You're not [Mark Stouse]: even looking at it in weak blocks, right? [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: You know? So, I mean, it's just a... I would say that all of a sudden, uh, [Mark Stouse]: brand... So brand is actually one of the most time-lagged investments that [Mark Stouse]: you can make in your business, but it's crucial. But the main reason why most [Mark Stouse]: business leaders don't like to spend money on brand, right, is that they can't [Mark Stouse]: ever tell when it's paying off because it's [Paris Vega]: Yeah, [Mark Stouse]: so time-lagged. [Paris Vega]: probably won't be in the quarterly report. [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, it won't be in [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: a lot of B2B. The impacts of brand are like anywhere from four to six quarters [Mark Stouse]: later. Right. [Paris Vega]: Mm. [Mark Stouse]: So it's one of those things that if you're not using a, uh, analytics tool, [Mark Stouse]: like proof, you'll never find it. You'll never understand it. Right. And [Mark Stouse]: so it just will look like wasted money, stupid money. Right. Why do we spend [Mark Stouse]: that money? Um, and then when it does start to have a positive effect, you [Mark Stouse]: will think it's something else that delivered that positive effect, not your [Mark Stouse]: brand investment a year earlier, right? [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: So it's, uh, it's kind of one of those things, right? Where you, I think [Mark Stouse]: one of the hardest things, um, and the best analogy that I've ever heard in [Mark Stouse]: terms of talking about this. One of the hardest things is to navigate your [Mark Stouse]: way forward as an entrepreneur. because the compass will always show you true [Mark Stouse]: north, but it doesn't tell you anything about all the obstacles and everything [Mark Stouse]: that you're gonna have to get around and cross and all this kind of stuff, [Mark Stouse]: right? And so what you really need is a GPS, right? You need the map function [Mark Stouse]: of the GPS, but you more importantly in some respects, you need the GPS that's going [Mark Stouse]: to say, hey, the route you're on was a really good route, that route to value, [Mark Stouse]: it was moving along really well, but now the marketplace has changed, the macroeconomic [Mark Stouse]: picture has changed, lots of other things have changed, whatever, right? [Mark Stouse]: And this is no longer the best route for you to get to your goal, right? And [Mark Stouse]: so, and you can see this between the forecast in a tool like Proof. And the [Mark Stouse]: actuals, you can see the Delta opening up and you can see what's causing the [Mark Stouse]: Delta and so you can war game the response you can just like in your GPS [Mark Stouse]: on your phone, right? The phone's going to say, Hey man, you need to reroute. [Paris Vega]: Mm. [Mark Stouse]: Right. [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: And the, it's actually not just an analogy. It's literally the truth. It's [Mark Stouse]: a true comparison because when, when you're using your GPS and you say, okay, [Mark Stouse]: I'm here or it knows where you are. Right. And you say, I want to go to this [Mark Stouse]: restaurant and it gives you the proverbial three routes, you know, the choice [Mark Stouse]: of three routes. Those are forecasts. Literally. Those are forecasts. So, and then [Mark Stouse]: when you pick one, right, it's tracking you, it's tracking all these things [Mark Stouse]: that are either gonna speed you up or slow you down, and then it's gonna make [Mark Stouse]: a call whether or not you need to change course or not. That's exactly what [Mark Stouse]: business leaders need, because if they try to do it without that kind of perspective, [Mark Stouse]: it's just too frickin' hard. Like you go back to the... that I've talked [Mark Stouse]: to some older entrepreneurs in tech, you know, that, that did a tech startup [Mark Stouse]: software startup 25, 30 years ago. Right. I mean, it's really clear they [Mark Stouse]: succeeded based upon the fact that they had a great product and it happened [Mark Stouse]: to be in demand. That problem was so hairy that when they launched that product, [Mark Stouse]: everybody wanted it. Right. And it was also a smaller industry and, you know, [Mark Stouse]: it was [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: all this kind of stuff. Right. So it was, um, you know, that's the way it [Mark Stouse]: went down today. You know, that wouldn't work. I mean, and a lot, and they'll [Mark Stouse]: be the first one to tell you that a lot of those startups, you know, failed [Mark Stouse]: disproportionately, right. For that reason. [Paris Vega]: What would you say the biggest challenge was during that year and a half, [Paris Vega]: 18 month period, as you were getting those customers and ramping up to 2 million, [Paris Vega]: what was the hardest part of customer acquisition during that, that time? [Mark Stouse]: I would say that the, the actually the really the hardest one, the hardest part, [Mark Stouse]: right, was even people that I knew, even people that knew Kyle or other people [Mark Stouse]: on the team and who had, you know, kind of like unquestioned regard for [Mark Stouse]: what we had accomplished. Their gut reaction is always to shave their risk. [Mark Stouse]: And the easiest way to shave their risk is to ask for discounts that no [Mark Stouse]: established company would ever accept. And so you're kind of, you're on the [Mark Stouse]: horns of this dilemma as the, as the entrepreneur, right? Because you really [Mark Stouse]: need the revenue, right? Uh, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: you need the revenue, you need the validation, you need the momentum, all [Mark Stouse]: that stuff, right? And are you willing, what are you willing to pay for that? [Mark Stouse]: Is really the question. And sometimes. [Mark Stouse]: Sometimes that can really be really hard. Um, what I have learned, I guess, [Mark Stouse]: over time is that the one factor that cannot be at all entertained in that decision [Mark Stouse]: process by me or, or the people on the team is ego as soon as you say, screw [Mark Stouse]: you, you know, our product is awesome. You know, we're not selling it for [Mark Stouse]: that. You know, blah, blah. Okay. That is a. You've just gone down the wrong [Mark Stouse]: road. Right. It may be a really the best decision might indeed be to turn it [Mark Stouse]: down, but not for that reason. And so, you know, when you feel and you can, [Mark Stouse]: you, most of us can't really control that too much, so you will feel it [Mark Stouse]: rise up inside you, that kind of indignation, that kind of like how dare [Mark Stouse]: you ask for that, you know, dah, [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: and as soon as you. Feel that you need to really stop and kind of get rid [Mark Stouse]: of that or in sometimes I would just. You know, cause as a founder in particular, [Mark Stouse]: you have a lot of psychic energy bound up in the company. So you are particularly [Mark Stouse]: vulnerable to that kind of thing. Uh, particularly if you were also a type a, [Mark Stouse]: you know, one of the reasons why you might have done this in the first place [Mark Stouse]: was just to demonstrate just how smart you really are to people, which [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: honestly, I can tell you people don't care. Right. [Paris Vega]: Yep. [Mark Stouse]: So I would just say, you know, a lot of times I would just turn it over to [Mark Stouse]: somebody else on the team and say, you make the call. I, I am, I am not able [Mark Stouse]: and I'm sorry that I'm not able to, I know it's bad. I'm going to work on this. [Mark Stouse]: Right. But I'm not able to make a objective decision right now because everything [Mark Stouse]: in me is telling me to go, you know, shoot them, you know, flip them off. [Mark Stouse]: Right. And, and that's not. that's on a basis of good business decision. [Paris Vega]: sure. This has been really interesting, focusing on the importance of the founders [Paris Vega]: personal brand, awareness, confidence and trust. Are there any books you'd recommend [Paris Vega]: entrepreneurs starting out? Maybe they're they don't have a 20 year history yet. [Paris Vega]: But they've decided to take that leap anyway and try to start something on their [Paris Vega]: own. Or maybe there's some experienced kind of veteran corporate exec folks who are [Paris Vega]: thinking about starting out and [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, [Paris Vega]: getting [Mark Stouse]: there's [Paris Vega]: into the [Mark Stouse]: a [Paris Vega]: entrepreneur [Mark Stouse]: book, [Paris Vega]: space. [Mark Stouse]: and I know the title. I'm so sorry. I don't know the, uh, the author off [Mark Stouse]: the top of my head. Um, [Paris Vega]: That's [Mark Stouse]: but, [Paris Vega]: okay. [Mark Stouse]: but [Paris Vega]: I'll [Mark Stouse]: I'll [Paris Vega]: add it [Mark Stouse]: send [Paris Vega]: to the [Mark Stouse]: it, [Paris Vega]: show [Mark Stouse]: I'll [Paris Vega]: notes. [Mark Stouse]: send it to you afterwards and, and you can, you know, publish it with the, [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: you know, when you publish the podcast, but it is, um, pretty sure is how [Mark Stouse]: things actually get done. [Paris Vega]: Mm. [Mark Stouse]: Right. And it's a It's a brilliant book about how organizations. Either functionally [Mark Stouse]: or dysfunctionally get things done. And I found it to be a remarkable decoder [Mark Stouse]: ring. You know, even as somebody who had spent a lot of time inside of organizations [Mark Stouse]: like that. and felt like, honestly, that I had a pretty good grasp of how things [Mark Stouse]: really got done. I learned a lot from that book. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: Cause the most important thing, the most important thing, okay, is you've got [Mark Stouse]: to really understand your customer's problems, how they have to operate, how they [Mark Stouse]: define success and failure. You got to really, that's going to be really, really [Mark Stouse]: key, right? It that's far more important in some respects. I mean, this is [Mark Stouse]: not meant to be an either or thing, right? But it's far more important. [Mark Stouse]: than being an expert on your product. [Paris Vega]: That's good. Um, let's close out with you speaking directly to that. Let's say [Paris Vega]: we got a thousand of your target ideal customers listening. What's that kind [Paris Vega]: of summary of what proof analytics can do to help entrepreneurs or CEOs or [Mark Stouse]: Sure. [Paris Vega]: the CMOs maybe [Mark Stouse]: I mean, [Paris Vega]: at [Mark Stouse]: so [Paris Vega]: a company. [Mark Stouse]: we are proof is a business GPS. We are a go-to-market GPS if you want to think [Mark Stouse]: of it in a particular use case, right? [Paris Vega]: Mm-hmm. [Mark Stouse]: So what we did was we took classic, totally proven, totally transparent, no black [Mark Stouse]: box math around multivariable regression. And which is pretty much the foundation [Mark Stouse]: of all science. And we, and it's been around, you know, forever, right? I mean, [Mark Stouse]: like literally a very long time. So the problem in business is not the math [Mark Stouse]: or even the data, although both are important, right? It's what business leaders [Mark Stouse]: struggle with when it comes to data scientists is, and analytics in general, [Mark Stouse]: is... They really don't speak the same language. More to the point, they [Mark Stouse]: don't have the same priorities. So data science is all about, I want the most [Mark Stouse]: accurate result, the most accurate answer. And they've established 95% confidence [Mark Stouse]: score as kind of like a minimum, right? The problem is it's totally unrealistic [Mark Stouse]: because as soon as you talk about a lot of human behavior data, which is pretty [Mark Stouse]: much all business, that's what business is, right? Um, the maximum is usually [Mark Stouse]: in the fifties if you're lucky. [Paris Vega]: Wow. [Mark Stouse]: Right. And so data science tends to exclude that. The real thing that the business [Mark Stouse]: wants is they don't want, they don't see the world deterministically, meaning [Mark Stouse]: they're not looking for an absolute. Answer. Right. What they want is I want to [Mark Stouse]: just be able to make a better decision tomorrow than I made today. Right? [Mark Stouse]: Because if I'm, if let's say it's a decision that somebody has to make every [Mark Stouse]: day, 365 days a year, and if they can make it half a point better every [Mark Stouse]: day, which is not a lot, right? It, the, you look at that through the window [Mark Stouse]: of compounding, compounded effect, right? Annualized that's really close to 2000% [Mark Stouse]: improvement year on year. That's huge. That's monstrous. Right. And, uh, and [Mark Stouse]: that's the way a business leader thinks about this. Right. And they also know [Mark Stouse]: that when they make a business decision, that if it were to be modeled by [Mark Stouse]: a bunch of data scientists, it would be the confidence score would be excruciatingly [Mark Stouse]: low, probably in the twenties, right? So if you can get them from 20 to 30, [Mark Stouse]: or even 40, you're a hero. particularly if you were doing it where the model is recalculating [Mark Stouse]: constantly at the speed of the business. So the risk that, that is normally [Mark Stouse]: there with, you know, you, you compute the model and you wait six months and [Mark Stouse]: you recompute the model again. And so you're kind of like, you know, the blind [Mark Stouse]: man for six months, [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: that's not there anymore. And so what we did was taking the GPS as a metaphor, [Mark Stouse]: but also as a real life example of what we do, we automated it all, or most [Mark Stouse]: of it, where it is a business GPS. You can ask it a question and create a [Mark Stouse]: model and attach all the data that you need to feed that model. And it will [Mark Stouse]: just keep on recomputing it. is brought into the model. There's usually [Mark Stouse]: a cadence at which businesses measure something, right? That's related [Paris Vega]: Mm-hmm. [Mark Stouse]: largely to their operational cadence. And so it's by definition updated [Mark Stouse]: in real time for them, or relevant time for them. [Paris Vega]: What kind of data might a business input into proof analytics? [Mark Stouse]: It really totally depends on what the question is, right? So like if you're [Mark Stouse]: saying, you know, a classic question for a lot of our customers is, Hey, you know, [Mark Stouse]: all these things that we're spending money on in marketing, what's the real impact [Mark Stouse]: of all that stuff on sales productivity? So this would be kind of like, how many more [Mark Stouse]: deals are we getting because marketing is involved? How many. How many more. [Mark Stouse]: Big deals, are we getting, what's the accelerating function of marketing on deal [Mark Stouse]: velocity, right? Because more deals, bigger deals, faster deals, there's [Mark Stouse]: a one-to-one relationship between those three things and revenue, margin, and [Mark Stouse]: cash flow. Right? So if you can say, okay, you know, our goals are more, or [Mark Stouse]: more and better revenue margin and cashflow. And we understand that more deals, [Mark Stouse]: bigger deals, faster deals is inextricably. You know, bound up with, with [Mark Stouse]: that outcome. Then how is marketing helping to improve sales productivity in these [Mark Stouse]: areas? So like if marketing totally didn't exist. And the whole burden was being [Mark Stouse]: carried by sales. Would they be able to close the same number of deals, [Mark Stouse]: same size deals as fast as we're currently experiencing? And if we spent more [Mark Stouse]: money on marketing, is that going to help accelerate deal velocity or, you know, [Mark Stouse]: help get more, more enlarged deals, more deal expansion? And how long is [Mark Stouse]: it going to take for that marketing investment to have that kind of impact? [Paris Vega]: Hmm. [Mark Stouse]: Right? So it's kind of like value, time to value on a calculated forecasted basis, [Mark Stouse]: which the forecasted piece is the whole ball of wax from a credibility standpoint, [Mark Stouse]: right? Because if you call the ball and then it happens the way you called [Mark Stouse]: it. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: Or you can show, hey, things started to change, and so I had to change with [Mark Stouse]: it, right? And so we're still gonna get there, but we're gonna get there [Mark Stouse]: a month later than we thought, right, and here's why, and it's an explainable, [Mark Stouse]: logical, mathematically proven out argument, and everyone's gonna go, totally [Mark Stouse]: cool, totally get it, right? [Paris Vega]: So is this, or maybe you can compare it to like typical marketing tracking and analytics [Paris Vega]: that you get from any platform you might run ads on, you know, you'll get [Paris Vega]: whatever number of conversions and then it might project if you X, you know, [Paris Vega]: increase your budget by X, you'll get X more conversions. It'll give you a little [Paris Vega]: bit of forecasting and all the different [Mark Stouse]: So actually, [Paris Vega]: platforms. [Mark Stouse]: that's not a forecast, even though most people will say, well, it is kind of a [Mark Stouse]: forecast. Well, it's actually not. It's an extrapolation. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: And an extrapolation basically says, the premise of an extrapolation is that [Mark Stouse]: past is always prologue, meaning whatever is going on is going to continue to [Mark Stouse]: go on just the way it's always gone on. I mean, does anybody who's lived through [Mark Stouse]: the last three or four years believe that anymore? You know, I mean, I just [Mark Stouse]: think it's. [Paris Vega]: doesn't account for Black Swan events or [Mark Stouse]: Yeah, [Paris Vega]: hard-willed [Mark Stouse]: or seasonality [Paris Vega]: things. [Mark Stouse]: or anything, right? It doesn't, it, you know, if all of a sudden the, the macroeconomics [Mark Stouse]: change or you have some sort of reputational problem in the marketplace [Mark Stouse]: or your competitors do something that's, you know, that impacts you, right? [Mark Stouse]: The extrapolation is totally blind to all those factors, all those externalities. [Mark Stouse]: Right. It's like saying. if you're a surfer, okay? So the stuff you don't control [Mark Stouse]: is the wave. And you're never gonna control the wave. So what do you control? [Mark Stouse]: Well, you control your response to the wave. Right? And so you build in little [Mark Stouse]: feedback loops that try and help you stay upright as opposed to wiping out. [Mark Stouse]: Right? Then let's just say that you have, you've ridden five waves today and [Mark Stouse]: you haven't wiped out once. The extrapolation would be that you could probably [Mark Stouse]: go another one or two, right, and have the same experience. But does anybody [Mark Stouse]: really believe that? Right? I mean, that, that's not the way it works. Right? [Mark Stouse]: The ocean has a mind of its own. Right. It can, you know, I mean, I almost died [Mark Stouse]: in the sailing accident when I was 18. [Paris Vega]: Hmm. [Mark Stouse]: So in the middle of a storm in the middle of the Gulf of Mexico, I totally [Mark Stouse]: get this personally. Right. So [Paris Vega]: Mm. [Mark Stouse]: I, uh, I will just tell you that extrapolation is bullshit. Right. And, and [Mark Stouse]: if you're sales leader or your marketing leader or any tool, is giving you [Mark Stouse]: an extrapolation, it's lying to you. It's, it's, it's under, it's, again, [Mark Stouse]: we were talking about linearity and non-linearity and how most people love [Mark Stouse]: linearity because it's easier to grasp and understand, [Paris Vega]: Mm-hmm. [Mark Stouse]: right? That's what extrapolation is. Extrapolation is linearity. And, but it's [Mark Stouse]: not true, right? And so we can give you, our software can give you an actual [Mark Stouse]: real deal, multi-variable forecast. Right? That takes into account nonlinearity, [Mark Stouse]: which is, nonlinearity is like, the easy way of talking about nonlinearity [Mark Stouse]: is that it is. somewhat unpredictable. It's not a straight line. It's this, right? [Mark Stouse]: It's all this kind of stuff. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: It's also where leverage comes from. Right? So whenever, whether you're talking [Mark Stouse]: about engineering or whether you're talking about finances or whatever, [Mark Stouse]: right? When you're talking about leverage, you're talking about non-linearity. [Mark Stouse]: Because linearity gives you no leverage. So like a great example of this in [Mark Stouse]: go to market would be sales function is linear. So let's say that the CRO gets a [Mark Stouse]: new revenue goal. The first thing that he or she is going to do is figure out [Mark Stouse]: what does that mean in terms of the pro rata quota for all of my sales guys. [Mark Stouse]: And usually they're going to conclude that they don't have enough sales [Mark Stouse]: guys. So now they have to go hire a bunch of sales guys rapidly to then [Mark Stouse]: try and meet their quota, knowing that some of them were going to suck and not [Mark Stouse]: perform at all. Right. And, and it's, you know, it's, it's kind of this, it's [Mark Stouse]: a very linear function. Marketing actually was created 120 years ago from the [Mark Stouse]: get-go. as to create non-linear leverage on sales. It was a way where you didn't [Mark Stouse]: necessarily have to spend more money in order to reach more people. I mean, [Mark Stouse]: that's not a perfect statement. I mean, there is some relationship between [Mark Stouse]: what you spend and what you get, but I mean, [Paris Vega]: Sure. [Mark Stouse]: it's, you're not doing, you're not, you're not the sales guy in the street [Mark Stouse]: going door to door to door, spending eight or 10 hours a day talking to people and [Mark Stouse]: being successful with some, right? That's necessary. But what you really want [Mark Stouse]: is you want the leverage from marketing that [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: is going to help you get more. good stuff out of your sales force. [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: So that's the difference, right? [Paris Vega]: So, okay, I understand that part, linear versus nonlinear, but how does proof [Paris Vega]: analytics achieve that? Like how do you make your tool aware of all the kind [Mark Stouse]: So [Paris Vega]: of environmental [Mark Stouse]: what happens is [Paris Vega]: factors? [Mark Stouse]: that, is that the customer says, okay, here's, here are the questions I have. [Mark Stouse]: These, this is what I want to know. These are the decisions I have to make [Mark Stouse]: that I want to make better. And. Mod, you know, creating the model for those [Mark Stouse]: is, is reasonably straightforward. Um, the key [Paris Vega]: How long [Mark Stouse]: thing, [Paris Vega]: does [Mark Stouse]: uh, [Paris Vega]: that take to create a model? [Mark Stouse]: less than a day in, [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: in proof. No, I mean, normally under. normal data science kinds of manual [Mark Stouse]: model creation, it would take days. [Paris Vega]: And does the data have to already be like all the inputs have to already be connected [Paris Vega]: for the [Mark Stouse]: So [Paris Vega]: system [Mark Stouse]: one of the [Paris Vega]: to [Mark Stouse]: things that people really love about proof on that score is that, uh, we have [Mark Stouse]: two different kinds of ways to introduce data into a model. Um, you can do [Mark Stouse]: what's called a flat file upload, which is essentially uploading an Excel file, [Mark Stouse]: right into the tool. Um, and there's a time and a place to do that, right? [Mark Stouse]: Particularly when you are kind of testing out the model before you put it [Mark Stouse]: into production. Right. That's, this is a really good way to do that. Um, kind [Mark Stouse]: of keep it real lean and non-complicated. Um, but I mean, the, the real virtue where [Mark Stouse]: proof really sings, right. Is when you finally say, okay, this is the model. [Mark Stouse]: These are the data sets. We have all the data sets and we can API those. We [Mark Stouse]: can connect them automatically into proof and feed the model and get automatic. [Mark Stouse]: recalculation of that model at whatever cadence we need, right? That's the [Mark Stouse]: value. That's where you really, you know, come, it comes into play. And so, [Mark Stouse]: and if you don't know anything about regression in a nutshell, regression [Mark Stouse]: takes data from the past and data is always about the past. It's only about [Mark Stouse]: the past. And so data by itself is really valuable, but it cannot forecast. [Mark Stouse]: This is why extrapolations. out off of datasets is a non-starter, right? So [Mark Stouse]: you're gonna go, okay, I'm gonna take all this data and I'm gonna put it into [Mark Stouse]: this model and it's gonna find the relationships, the cause and effect relationships [Mark Stouse]: that are the most important. And it's going to say, okay, so the way you're [Mark Stouse]: gonna get the readout, okay, so let's cut to the chase on that, right? The [Mark Stouse]: readout is, Okay. Here are all the things that contributed to this outcome. [Mark Stouse]: Here's the stack rank of how that operated. What was the most important, [Mark Stouse]: second most important, all this kind of stuff and what didn't have any effect [Mark Stouse]: at all. And the stuff that you didn't have any effect at all, but you're spending [Mark Stouse]: a lot of money on, you need to take a really hard look at that. And maybe [Mark Stouse]: say, eh, let's not spend any more money on that. And let's put that money [Mark Stouse]: somewhere else. So this is a direct. reflection of opportunity cost helps [Mark Stouse]: people mitigate waste and remove that opportunity cost issue as much as possible. [Mark Stouse]: It will tell you the time lag so this is how long it's going to take for [Mark Stouse]: this investment or any other investment to have the desired effect. Within [Mark Stouse]: I mean most of the time you don't have a lot of control over that because the [Mark Stouse]: time lag is actually more about how the marketplace reacts and processes the [Mark Stouse]: things than anything that you can do about it. So in the end, this is really [Mark Stouse]: very, it's in fact, it's exactly like managing an investment portfolio. You [Mark Stouse]: know, if you have a 401k or something like that, your [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: wealth manager is going to manage that stuff in the same way that, that go to [Mark Stouse]: market investments, marketing and sales investments and other kinds, right? [Mark Stouse]: should be managed. [Paris Vega]: Right. Because you've only got so much time, energy, cash [Mark Stouse]: Yeah. And you also [Paris Vega]: to distribute. [Mark Stouse]: want to balance your risk, [Paris Vega]: It's [Mark Stouse]: right? [Paris Vega]: just [Mark Stouse]: And [Paris Vega]: like asset management. Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: it's not just about, you know, investing in a number of things, right? So [Mark Stouse]: that you diffuse your risk in that dimension. You also want to have investments [Mark Stouse]: that pay off at different time horizons. Same deal, right? [Paris Vega]: And the website for Proof Analytics is it proofanalytics.ai? [Mark Stouse]: It is. [Paris Vega]: All right, website. OK, I was just going to share a screen here so everybody [Paris Vega]: can get a little view of what we're talking about here. [Mark Stouse]: And, [Paris Vega]: But this has been really interesting. [Mark Stouse]: you know, there's always a lot of people, right, who always say, well, how [Mark Stouse]: do I know the math is good? Right. Well, the answer to that is that it's not new [Mark Stouse]: math. The secret sauce of proof is not some sort of black box approach to math [Mark Stouse]: that, you know, where you're saying, Hey, you know, we have this super super [Mark Stouse]: secret algorithm that's going to tell you everything you always wanted about, [Mark Stouse]: right? That's completely BS, right? And any, any vendor who takes that approach [Mark Stouse]: with you, okay, is, is I would really question that like big time. So, um, [Mark Stouse]: our secret sauce is in the way we automated it, the way that we make it accessible [Mark Stouse]: to people. the way we price it, the way, all that kind of stuff. You know, [Mark Stouse]: we are all about making this available. If you really want to use it, you [Mark Stouse]: can use it, right? You can afford to use it. You can be taught easily how to [Mark Stouse]: use it. You know, it's, I mean, that's the whole goal, right? [Mark Stouse]: Because [Paris Vega]: Yeah. [Mark Stouse]: everyone involved in proof, including especially me, right, made a lot of money that [Mark Stouse]: we would not have otherwise made in our careers because of analytics. Like I [Mark Stouse]: structured my entire comp package in my last two corporate jobs based on analytics [Mark Stouse]: like this, right? And it allowed me to personally capture a lot more comp than [Mark Stouse]: I would have ever gotten under a normal contract. Right. So I want that for [Mark Stouse]: everybody. I, you know, that's, that's a, that's an incredible thing. Right. [Mark Stouse]: It's, it's value extraction, right? You're, you're creating a lot of value. [Mark Stouse]: Uh, you deserve to be paid for that value. [Paris Vega]: So who's the target customer for you guys, that ideal role at a company or type [Paris Vega]: of person who would use your service? [Mark Stouse]: Well, I mean, we, so we do a lot in go-to-market. So marketing and sales [Mark Stouse]: and things like that. Right. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: So, so we, I would say the CMO and CRO for sure. But we also, we, we take [Mark Stouse]: a lot of in-bounds today from finance. And it may, you know, it's, you don't [Mark Stouse]: have to be a rocket scientist to figure out why. Right. I mean, finance is [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: trying to optimize big time so that waste is largely removed. Cause money [Mark Stouse]: is tight, right? And so that's, uh, that's why that's going on. And so it's, [Mark Stouse]: uh, yeah, I mean, you know, I would say that, but I mean, it's an agnostic [Mark Stouse]: platform. So what that means is that you can really use it to compute anything. [Mark Stouse]: Right. Uh, in fact, when we do big product updates, the really big ones, the [Mark Stouse]: way we test that everything. happened the way it was supposed to happen [Mark Stouse]: and all that kind of stuff was we run the healthcare data through it with [Mark Stouse]: a known outcome. You know, this is all, this is a scenario that obviously happened [Mark Stouse]: in the past, but it has full scale analytics and everyone knows what the, [Mark Stouse]: what the answer is. And so [Paris Vega]: Oh, okay. [Mark Stouse]: the goal is that, you know, you want to see your tool give the right answer. [Mark Stouse]: Right. Um, and if [Paris Vega]: Right. [Mark Stouse]: it doesn't, then you've, you've got an issue somewhere. And so we, that's how [Mark Stouse]: we do it. So you can run, you can use it on a business wide basis. You really [Mark Stouse]: can. [Paris Vega]: Really cool. Well, Mark, thank you so much for being here today. You provided [Paris Vega]: a lot of value and gave, I think, a different perspective on getting first customers [Paris Vega]: than really we've talked about before on past episodes. So that's cool that [Paris Vega]: it fills a gap, especially around that idea of the founder brand and focusing [Paris Vega]: on that. I'll include links to everything we've talked about in the show notes [Paris Vega]: and... Yeah, just want to say thanks for giving us time today. [Mark Stouse]: You bet. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope it was helpful. If any of your listeners [Mark Stouse]: want to contact me, the best way to do it by far is a private message on [Mark Stouse]: LinkedIn. [Paris Vega]: Okay. [Mark Stouse]: Um, I mean, if you want to do it publicly underneath one of my posts, that's [Mark Stouse]: fine too, but you don't have to, and, um, you know, email is typically not [Mark Stouse]: the best way to reach me. Um, And, you know, I'm also on Twitter. The handle [Mark Stouse]: is at Mark Stoos. And so you can, you can also do it that way. But I'm very [Mark Stouse]: responsive. You know, I, I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn in particular. So [Mark Stouse]: the response time is probably measured in minutes. [Paris Vega]: Cool. All right, everybody, thanks for listening. Reach out to Mark if you're [Paris Vega]: in that target demo, and we'll see you next episode. [Mark Stouse]: Thanks so much, man.